Talk Description to Me

Episode 94 - Gestures and Body Language

March 05, 2022 Christine Malec and JJ Hunt Season 4 Episode 94
Talk Description to Me
Episode 94 - Gestures and Body Language
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Christine is fascinated by gestures, body language, and non-verbal communication. In this fun, chatty episode, the Queen of Curious Questions asks JJ to describe facial expressions, eyebrow acting, and a variety of shrugs. Then the pair discusses the language of subtle eye movements, directional signalling, and everyone's favourite, rude gestures!

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JJ Hunt:

Talk description to me with Christine Malec and JJ Hunt.

Christine Malec:

Hi, I'm Christine Malec.

JJ Hunt:

And I'm JJ Hunt. This is talk description to me, where the visuals of current events and the world around us get hashed out in description rich conversations.

Christine Malec:

In a previous episode, we talked about nonverbal gestures, and it was great fun for us. And judging by the audience response, it was great fun for you to and so there's, there's so much to talk about that we thought we would revisit that. And I, I like talking about this stuff for the same reason I like using emojis in my texts, which is that it's, it's like learning a language. So when I when I do something like nod or shake my head, I feel like I'm speaking a language I can't understand. And I like the dissonance of that. So that I like to know the code or the language that I can't necessarily perceive directly. But I still feel like it's part of the sighted world. And so I'm curious to know about it. So what we thought we would do is have much more of a kind of conversation. We were always conversing. We always have conversations in our episode, but I think this is actually an episode word. JJ, you don't have any notes, which I love.

JJ Hunt:

Yeah, not a lot. Not a lot, just a little bit here and there. But mostly, I just want to like, I want to talk it out, answer your questions.

Christine Malec:

Yeah!

JJ Hunt:

And see what we come up with.

Christine Malec:

So I'm just going to keep firing stuff at JJ and we're gonna we're gonna bat this stuff back and forth. Because it's a, it's if you've never been a sighted person, it's a bit of a closed book, but it's one that I love to understand better than I do. So I'm going to start really basic. So the nodding gesture, which is to to agree to say yes, is I know that it's to to sort of move your head up and down, like your chin down, chin up. But when you read a novel or something, there's so much expression, you know, there's so many different ways to to do it. So JJ, what are some of the different ways that people will nod?

JJ Hunt:

Oh there are so many. So you can have like, no can be an angry nod, for example, you might hear a describer say an angry nod or in a novel, say an angry nod. And maybe that NOD is very slow and deliberate. Right? Maybe there's a narrowing of the eyes as you're nodding like that. Very slow and deliberate. That's probably angry. Maybe there's a reluctant nod, right? Like you're, you're not entirely on board. So maybe the nod there's a delay before you start nodding. And then maybe you take like one long drop of the head. Worried like you almost hang your chin. And then there's a slow bounce kind of like you're like a ball. It's losing its energy, right? A delayed start. Drop your head Bounce, bounce, bounce, right? Maybe that's a Yeah, okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Maybe it's an eager nod. Right? Maybe it's like a very short, quick. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. where your head is just very tight, little bouncing up and down, right. And so much of the nuance of that NOD is the expression that goes with it right, like what is your jaw tight or your lips? You know, held as your or you do your eyes have a have a smile to them, right? As your head cocked a little bit the nuance to the nod to just say someone nods. They could be, you know, a dozen different things. It's all about the nuance.

Christine Malec:

Could you ascribe all of what you just said to a shake of the head as well?

JJ Hunt:

Yeah, exactly. Like, if you're shaking your head, no, no, maybe you're like, Nah, buddy, I don't believe that. And you know, there's a little bit of a sly smile in your face. And maybe you're gonna shake your head instead of just straight back and forth. Maybe you're gonna cock your head as you shake it back and forth. like nah, nah, no, no, no. Or maybe there's like an absolutely not. And it is a it is a sharp to the side, take a pause to the side, take a pause to the side, take a pause, right? Like there are different ways to express different things with that shake of the head by just changing the dynamics a little bit, changing the expression a little bit, changing the rhythm a little bit.

Christine Malec:

Now, we actually had a listener ask about, you mentioned sort of your brow or your eyes and and so we had a listener asked specifically about a furrowed brow versus a knit brow.

JJ Hunt:

Yeah, great. So this was I think a Twitter user named See No Limits asked about the difference the furrowed brow versus the knit brow, which is such a great question, because it's an incredibly subtle difference. So with a knitting of the brow, you're kind of pulling your eyebrows together to make this small, wrinkled ridge between them, you can feel it, if you if you pull your eyebrows together, you get this little wrinkled ridge between your brows. With a knit brow, you kind of raise your eyebrows while you're doing that. So there's a look of a little bit of maybe curiosity or maybe questioning, maybe there's a little bit of disbelief or confusion. So that's eyebrows together, and then raised with a furrow. Maybe you're gonna pull your eyebrows together make the same little wrinkle, but then you lower your eyebrows, your eyebrows go down a little bit, there's more of an anger in the expression, maybe some mistrust, maybe some disapproval, maybe it's disgust, right. This is very, very subtle. And I'm reading an awful lot into that right? In audio description, sometimes knit and furrow. And in novels as well, sometimes those can be used interchangeably, right? Especially if you're a writer who is working fast on a deadline. Or if you've got actors involved in a show that you're working on, that really aren't that fantastic. There can be a lot of eyebrow acting going on. And so you're left describing a lot of eyebrow action. And sometimes as a describer, you just like, Oh my God, I've said the guy furrows his brow like 10 times in the last five minutes, because that's all the actors done, I gotta mix it up a bit. This time you knit his brow. So I don't want to, you know, you don't want to read too much into this. But generally speaking, knitting is together and a little bit raised a little bit more curious. And furrow is together and down a little bit angrier a little bit more disapproving.

Christine Malec:

A good friend of mine enlightened me a year or two ago, she said, You have what the F face, which is when I hear something that I have trouble said your eyebrows kind of go up. And it's definitely a what the F face. And this was news to me.

JJ Hunt:

Ha ha ha.

Christine Malec:

I think there's, there's is there more to be said about eyebrows because they do get a lot of coverage. So in in books, there might be you know, raised an eyebrow like is it possible to raise one eyebrow? And is this a technique that differs between people?

JJ Hunt:

Oh, yeah, the raising of one eyebrow is fantastic. First of all, it's a great party trick. I can raise my right but I can't raise only my left. I can't do it. So like to see me try is very comical, because contort my face, and I really work at it and the left is not going anywhere. But I can raise that right one. And so the one raised eyebrow, the cocking of an eyebrow is really expressive and can and can say a whole lot it can be it can be a real like, I don't think so kind of moment, right with one raised eyebrow. It really presents this idea of like there's a cheekiness to it. There's a there's a mistrust, but a playfulness to it. And if you can, you can get that sucker going really high, it can be downright comical the rock, the actor, Dwayne The Rock Johnson, loves cocking that one eyebrow, it goes way up there and it's fun. It's a funny, it's a funny expression.

Christine Malec:

So let's talk shrugging, shrugging in my understanding is a raising and lowering of the shoulders that generally expresses either uncertainty or indifference. Can you can you break down some of the different ways that those happen and what they might mean?

JJ Hunt:

Totally. So you're absolutely right in the in the physical action of the basic shrug is your shoulders up, shoulders down, right? That's the shrug. But there's a lot that can go along with that, right? So a big shrug, maybe you're gonna have closed lips and a forced tight smile, and your shoulders go up? And maybe what you're what you're saying there is like, what are you going to do? And maybe in that case, not only are your shoulders going up, but maybe you're raising your hands as well. So maybe your hands are going up in front of you kind of, you know, separated shoulder width apart, your shoulders are also going up and they're like, What are you going to do? That's a bigger shrug. Maybe you're cocking your head to one side, you're tilting your head. It's a big shrug. And then maybe there's a smaller shrug. So maybe it's just your shoulders right? So maybe it's a little small, like up down. That's it. Like I don't know. What do you want to do tonight? I don't know. You know, just a very short little bounce of the shoulder. Maybe and we you can shrug your eyebrows to the exact same action of the shoulders can be the shrug of both eyebrows so like oh my gosh, I didn't know that one. Yeah, the shrugging of the eyebrows for sure. Up and down. Right like what do you what did you see that like that's a good like moment for the eyebrows to go see that? There's it your eyebrows get shot. Oh my god, right. Yeah, so There's a ton you can do. And again, it's about the expression, it's about the nuance. It's about big do you bring your hands into it, you can also Like, sometimes, you hit a moment where you say that the the an actor shrugged or character shrugs and a thing. And as much of what they're doing is actually tilting their head to one side and getting it closer to one shoulder. So maybe I'll tilt my head to the left, and I'll bring my left shoulder up, like I don't know, it's as much about the tilting of the head. But the clearer thing to communicate is the shrugging quality as opposed to just the tip of the head, which might inadvertently tell the the audience that they are considering something. So the shrug of the shoulder in that moment is more important than the physical description of the tilting of the head shrug of the shoulder, it's just one shoulder going up and down.

Christine Malec:

Now, as a totally blind person, this is something I only know from, you know, the days when you used to sit beside people close enough to feel the move, but I'm really interested in the idea of just circulating so someone who speaks with their hands on it seems to be just innate, because I know blind people who do it, which I find fascinating. But can you say something about what that conveys? Or is it stylistic? Like, if someone is someone who just stimulates does it look the same for different people

JJ Hunt:

It's so varied, it's a very expressive way of speaking. And sometimes it can feel aggressive, like sometimes if those gestures are toward the person that you're speaking to, or you're reaching out to them, and maybe pounding one fist against the other, sometimes it's not meant to be angry, or meant to be aggressive. It's just expressive and emoting. And sometimes the gestures fall in line with the rhythm of speech. So, you know, as you're speaking, you're moving your hand in a circular motion, and it's got that kind of rhythm to it. And sometimes the rhythm of your speech will match the rhythm of your gestures. Sometimes, a person will get touched their glasses an awful lot, as they're making a point that becomes part of their gesturing, like, you know, really, I was thinking and you reach up and you and you grab the, you know, the bridge, or something, the glasses, and there are different ways to in some cases, you're almost pulling these in intentionally from how to be a good public speaker, you brochures and self help books, and you pull these in, because they do help you communicate, they do make you appear smarter, or more engaged, or something. And in some cases, they're you most cases, probably, you're just picking these things up. Because this is how this is your energy level. This is how the people in your family are speaking to people in your community. But it can be anything from like I've met people who speak with their hands whose whose arms are almost always extended, and the hands are almost always over their head, like big, doesn't matter what you're talking about great big gestures. And then some people who keep their hands more or less at chest tight in front of them. And their hands are almost just kind of rolling back and forth over each other just like little little tiny gestures. Maybe you're pointing a finger here or there as you're speaking. And sometimes it's small and tight. And for some people hands are at their sides, and they never speak with them at all, it's just not part of a part of their communication style.

Christine Malec:

Is it distracting ever?

JJ Hunt:

Yeah, it can be, it can be especially if it's completely contrary to the way you speak. If for example, you are someone who does not speak with their hands and you are speaking to someone who is very aggressive with their gestures, it can be off putting it can also be distracting, I get made fun of a lot when I'm doing zoom calls. Because I I speak with my hands a fair bit. And, and so I'll be like gesturing at the camera like, hey, it looks a little bit like I'm doing a magic show. Reaching the camera shaking back and forth, hey, and it's a little bit funny to be doing it. It's totally natural. I'm having a conversation sometimes I'm presenting or something like that. And so to me being an engaging speaker involves using my hands some somewhat and you can you can imagine as you if you're hearing me speak when I'm saying like you can imagine in those moments, my voice is going up probably my hands are going out my fingers are opening a little bit and that you know if we're live and in person that might make more sense than if we're like a zoom call and um, you know, reaching out toward the camera it looks a little bit looks a little bit silly and some people do giggle at it and and find it. Maybe not distracting but at least amusing.

Christine Malec:

I forget who the actor was but I remember hearing an actor interviewed a French Canadian guy maybe and he said one of the useful pieces of critique criticism he got was that he he used his eyes too much in a scene so he was a film actor and the reminder he got was, when you're on a big screen, imagine yourself on like the cenospheres some super big screen so your eyes are like a foot across or something. And so when you're fluttering your lashes all the time, it's kind of like off putting. And so it I guess I'm leading into that ever complex, subtle conversation about eyes and in books. And as a fiction writer, this is something I kind of tussled with, like, do I pretend to know what I'm talking about and say, you know, they gazed into each other's eyes or her eyes conveyed her law. And I kind of did it, but I felt like an imposter doing it. So so maybe we can talk about that. Is that overblown? Is that a romantic notion that eyes convey a lot of meaning?

JJ Hunt:

Yeah, I mean, that this is a tricky one, because eyes really can be that expressive? Are they the windows to the soul? You know, maybe that's a bit of poetic license there. But eyes can convey an incredible amount of information, especially if you are communicating with someone who knows you well, if you share if you are, if you have an intimate friendship, or a family relationship, you can convey a ton, like honestly, just widening your eyes a little bit, can convey a half a dozen different things in different social situations, right. Like if my wife and I are in a group conversation at a party, remember those parties? Yeah... So if we were in a group conversation...

Christine Malec:

Sort of pretty vague, it seems kind of dreamlike.

JJ Hunt:

Cast your mind back...

Christine Malec:

I think that's where a bunch of people get together, right? In one room?

JJ Hunt:

In one room and speaking, not six feet apart, yeah. Those things.

Christine Malec:

There might be more than one conversation going on.

JJ Hunt:

And so if you're in one of those kinds of conversations, where there are people talking across the group, more than one conversation, and you and a partner, who are both sighted want to communicate with each other, in that group conversation, like just privately has share a private moment where no one else gets it, you can honestly just widen your eyes, and you can convey a half a dozen different things. So I could say to my wife, like, can you believe this guy, just by widening my eyes, I could say we got to get out of here. I could say, This is terrifying. Like I'm really genuinely scared in this moment. And I could convey all of those things just by just by widening my eyes, different in slightly different ways, in part because my eyes are trained to be I am expressive with my eyes. And my wife knows how to read those little micro expressions, but also because of the rest of my face, right? So if my eyes widen, and maybe I swallow hard at the same moment, that's a that's, that's a terrifying moment, right? Oh, my Golgi. So I put that in there. Maybe if my eyes widen, and my jaw tightens. And when your jaw tightens, by the way, like you'll hear describers, I use his jaw tightens as a describer an awful lot, because it's a really good one. And you if someone's got a fairly lean face, you can see the little muscles in the side of the jaw literally like flex they the job does physically tighten that is a noticeable thing. So if my jaw tightens at the same time as my eyes open, that's going to mean something different. If I tilt my head, just the tiniest little bit and wide my eyes, then maybe that's more of a like we got to get out of here, like it's time to go right? So much can be conveyed just with the tiniest little bit of, of nuance in the expression, and knowing each other that is that's really important.

Christine Malec:

So this is feels really awkward to me, but I'm going to ask it because I'm just too curious. As a group, and I know you're going to hate to generalize in this way, but I'm going to ask anyway, as a group, do you find that blind people are more or less expressive in the facial expression department?,

JJ Hunt:

Ah, okay, good question.

Christine Malec:

You can back out right now. It's no really you really can't.

JJ Hunt:

So this is this is interesting. I have noticed if I am giving a live tour to a group of people and a lot of the people on the tour are blind or low vision. It is. It is wonderful as the presenter because if I make a joke or say something that doesn't land, no one fakes a smile. No one fakes a laugh. Because it's there. That's not how people are necessarily thinking to communicate if I'm presenting to a group of scientists. People, at least a handful of them are going to force a smile because they've got some understanding that like, yeah, that was terrible. He needs this. So they're gonna throw me a token smile. And that is not the case. It's a much more honest reaction. In those moments. If a group of people who are blind or low vision, dislike what I'm saying that dislike will come across in the expression, I would suggest more, more frequently and more honestly, than a group of sighted people who have trained themselves to... to be more actively... I'm really working hard here...

Christine Malec:

Socially responsive. It's okay, I'm going to rescue you here.

JJ Hunt:

Thank you! Ha ha!

Christine Malec:

No, I'm getting it. Socially responsive, there's a context a social context that's visual that we don't have. It's, you're okay. You're okay. You didn't say anything terrible! Ha ha ha!

JJ Hunt:

I did ok? I answered that alright?

Christine Malec:

You did well, you did well. I really put you on the spot there. It's something that I find so interesting.

JJ Hunt:

Ha ha ha. There's got to be a thesis in there. Ya.

Christine Malec:

Because is facial expression innate or learned, right? That's a question that we don't have an answer to. It's not our job. But that's something that you, yeah, you're in a position to have an opinion. So note to self be mindful, to convey the appropriate social cues.

JJ Hunt:

Ha ha! And you know, don't. Honest to god, I genuinely appreciate it. It's nice to... there's not a falseness to it. It really is quite refreshing.

Christine Malec:

So I want to talk about a whole set of that gestures that I find incredibly useful. And it kind of goes back to what I was saying at the beginning, which is, how can I communicate in a language that I can't understand, but there's lots of times where nonverbal communication is super useful. So I want to go through some basic stuff that, that we as a blind people can use in the public sphere, that might be really useful. So what if you wanted to non verbally, you wanted to tell someone, just wait, just give me one, you know, I'm in the middle. So just wait a second or something? How would you do that?

JJ Hunt:

Yeah. So again, it's, it's all about degrees, right? If it's a if it's a quick little, like, just wait, hold on, hold on, you can put up either one hand or two. So your hands in front of you, palms facing out, and and just give them a little kind of pump forward, push, push, like almost like a shoving act. And if you do it with one hand, very gently, like, no, hold on, hold on, you do it with two hands. It's like, hey, hey, wait up, slow down. But again, if you go back to that party situation, if if I'm at a party with someone, and they see that I'm getting a little bit boisterous, and it's a big crowded room, if I can see them, if they've already caught my attention, they could hold one hand at their side, basically, raise their palm so that it's, it's it's facing the floor, so I don't even have to face it out. Just you know, palm down at the floor and give it a very gentle pumped down. That's it slow down. Slow down. Oh, that would be enough for me to know that like, Hold on. Wait a minute, like, ease off there, tiger, you know, you're getting a little much. So that same gesture can go from big and bold, like a shoving gesture to a very small at your side, like hey, just calm it down. Yeah.

Christine Malec:

Oh! Oh! Ssay you're in a subway station or something. And someone wants to talk to you, but you have an earphone in or you're on the phone listening. Is there a gesture to show Oh, I've got an ear bud in, I can't hear you.

JJ Hunt:

You'd probably just tap your earbud.

Christine Malec:

Okay.

JJ Hunt:

Just just give a little tap of your earbuds or even... it can go the other way. If you want someone to take their earbuds out, you could tap your ear, and then they might know, Oh hold on, and they'll take their earbuds out and then they'll speak to you.

Christine Malec:

Oh!

JJ Hunt:

You can just do a little bit of that. That would be enough.

Christine Malec:

And what if you're in a really loud social situation or just in the public and you want to indicate I can't hear you.

JJ Hunt:

Then you might point at your ears and shrug. So you're like the shrugs like what's going on and the pointy ears like I can't hear you I can't hear you so it would be a shrugging of both shoulders and in a pointing to your ears.

Christine Malec:

My improvised would have been point in my ear and shake my head would that work?

JJ Hunt:

Yeah, yeah, sure. I can't... Yeah, that would work too. I can't hear you. Yeah, sure.

Christine Malec:

Okay, here's one I used to get my I think I mentioned this in a previous episode. My I had an axe who was sighted and he used to laugh really hard when I tried to do a beckoning gesture not unkindly. He just thought it was very funny that I could not quite, he said look like a skeleton. So can we can we go over the beckoning gesture like Come here?

JJ Hunt:

Yeah, so this is an interesting one, because it's, if you're not careful with it, it can be really rude. And in some cultures, it's just flat out considered rude because it's a little bit like the way you would treat a dog. Like Come here, come here. So for example, if you're in a restaurant situation, you probably don't want to, like, get the waiters attention by beckoning, you probably better just to raise a hand. Because in a lot of social situations, the actual beckoning can be considered. It's a bit of a power play, like I'm in charge, do what I say. So parents will do that to their kids, like you come here, right, but it's the gesture is generally palm up. And you either curl one finger toward you, so your index finger, curl it toward you in a, in a curling motion two or three times, or maybe you do all of your fingers, like, Come here, come here, you can even do both hands like get over here, and you can pull your arms toward you. So arms extended palms up. And then as instead of just curling your fingers, you're pulling your hands and like get over here, that's like pretty extreme. But in some countries, that's like, it's really you're telling someone, you are a dog, and I am the master. So in some countries, what you do is you put your palm down, and you use more of a scraping gesture. So if you want to, like get a get a taxi or something in India, that's what you would do stand at the side of the road. And instead of waving over palm up, you put your palm down, and you make a scratching gesture with your fingers. And that's to say, Come here, come here, over here.

Christine Malec:

Now, imagine I'm in a public setting, where I'm on my own, and I need help. I'm lost, or I'm disoriented, or for whatever reason I need assistance. But I don't want to be pathetic. Oh, what's it what's a visual way to convey that I'm needing assistance.

JJ Hunt:

So I mean, the biggest version of that gesture, if you're, if it's if there's an emergency situation, and you really want to convey, then you put your arms in the air, palms facing out, and you kind of scissor your hands back and forth. So you keep crossing your your arms over your head. So you're basically crossing your wrists or your forum. So you're, that's a big gesture like that's in a crowd, like over here, over here, right? I need help. That would be the a big way to get that across. But generally, if you're looking for help, in a smaller way, it would usually be verbal, like, I can't think on someone.

Christine Malec:

So what I've done just that I've made up his I'd stick one arm in the air, palm forward and just wave my hand back and forth.

JJ Hunt:

Ya, like Hey Hey Hey!

Christine Malec:

Like, with an itrritated expression on my face, probably. Ha ha.

JJ Hunt:

Ya, and that would certainly draw attention. Really, the key in that moment is to get someone to notice you. And then you can explain. And so like it that's, you know, the waving, the only thing about the waving is it could be mistaken for waving hello.

Christine Malec:

Oh, right. Okay. Some gestures I find useful when I'm traveling on my own, that help people around me know what my plans are or what my intentions are. So one thing I do and let me know if this makes sense. But I feel like this is a useful thing to talk about. If I'm waiting to cross, and it's just a crosswalk, and there's a car idling. I'd rather the car go first. I don't mind waiting. I just don't like walking in front of an idling car. So I just swapped my arm out, like to I start toward the car and just go swipe sideways. Like, go ahead. Does that make sense?

JJ Hunt:

That would be the one that the gesture I would use to so basically, you move your hand in the in the direction the car would go, right? So go go first. Oh, go You go first. You have to do that a few times. The only challenge there is sometimes they're doing the same to you. So they are waving like that to you...

Christine Malec:

That's a moment where it's just -- you've got to follow the bouncing ball here. I'm not seeing you!

JJ Hunt:

Exactly.

Christine Malec:

But the gesture is good?

JJ Hunt:

Yeah, that is the correct gesture. Yeah, absolutely.

Christine Malec:

Pointing. I point sometimes like, say I'm approaching a corner, and there's a car that's idling. I know, I'm going to turn so I don't care what that car is doing. I will sometimes point in the direction that I'm going to go to let the car know it doesn't matter. Like that's I'm going that way I'm going away from worry. So you can just do whatever you want. Does that make sense?

JJ Hunt:

The only challenge with that, the only thing that might be misunderstood and that is you might be saying You, you go there.

Christine Malec:

You go that way, right. Okay.

JJ Hunt:

As opposed to I'm going that way. So if you are going to, if you wanting to let the driver know that you're going somewhere I would maybe start with pointing at yourself and then pointing in the direction you're heading.

Christine Malec:

Ah perfect.

JJ Hunt:

And maybe doing that over and over again. Like I'm going that way I'm going that way I'm going that way. Got it got it. Make sure they get that.

Christine Malec:

So this is not a question for you. But I feel like I want to insert this once I started pointing my life got so much easier and here's why. People will often try to be helpful by saying oh go to the right but they're looking at you and so I never ever ever trust that they're telling me the accurate so I always Always, always point, like and then raise an eyebrow like that way. And like, oh, no, no, no, no the other way. And it's super, super useful that changed my life when I figured out when someone's trying to give me directions and most of the time they're having trouble putting it into words what they mean. If I point and they go, no, and then I point somewhere else. No point somewhere else. Yeah, yeah, there. So I just needed to add that that's a super helpful travel tip.

JJ Hunt:

For sure. And I mean, this is the this is the your right or my right situation.

Christine Malec:

Oh, it's terrible. Never trust any never trust people who give you light, right? Or if they're behind you even don't trust them, because some people don't have a good sense of... heh heh.

JJ Hunt:

Totally. That's right. Point the way is a good one. And by the way, very good use of a raising of the eyebrow. That's exactly right.

Christine Malec:

So let's get to the fun stuff and profanity.

JJ Hunt:

Ha ha ha!

Christine Malec:

So someone the bird means giving them the middle finger up, right, which means F U. Is that correct?

JJ Hunt:

In most places? Yes. But not everywhere.

Christine Malec:

So can we describe the gesture just so everyone knows exactly how to do it when necessary?

JJ Hunt:

Yes. So to flip someone the bird, it is the middle finger and it stays straight up, and all the other fingers are bent down, where the thumb is, as long as the thumbs tucked in. That's what matters. It doesn't matter if it's, you know, I mean, under your other fingers would be kind of weird. But the important thing is you are creating a shape of one finger, the middle finger sticking straight up. And that is flipping someone the bird.

Christine Malec:

And which which way does your palm face?

JJ Hunt:

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Good. It's knuckles out. Now close out knuckles so your palm is toward you, your knuckles are out. But that's only in most of the world. In Vietnam, for example, the middle finger is not at all used in that way. The middle finger is often used as a pointing gesture. So instead of pointing with your index finger, you point with the middle finger. Yeah, is the version of it in if you want to say you know where to go, instead of flipping the bird in Vietnam, you cross your fingers. And the crossing of the middle finger, obviously, when you're telling someone where to go is that's phallic, right? The crossing of the fingers is the opposite. And so you want to tell someone where to go in Vietnam, you cross your fingers. That represents a vagina. And that's how you express that, not with the middle finger.

Christine Malec:

Whistle. Wow, that is so interesting. See, now, I was teaching this to my ESL students or my English students. And I was trying to say fingers crossed, like for a good luck gesture, and I was doing the gesture at the camera now I'm thinking wow...

JJ Hunt:

Who was in that meeting?!

Christine Malec:

Yeah, I believe there was a Vietnamese lady on the call. Ha ha!

JJ Hunt:

Ha ha ha! Yup. I don't think you were saying good luck to her, my friend!

Christine Malec:

Ruh ro!

JJ Hunt:

Ha ha!

Christine Malec:

That's very helpful. I actually can't think of any other profane gestures in in Western culture. What are some some other ones?

JJ Hunt:

Well, I mean, there are a couple that we've we've talked about before that, I mean, the thumbs up gesture is a classic one where you know, hey, thumbs up, and that's very simple. You put your thumb up, you tuck your other fingers in towards your palm, right? That's it. And for a lot of the world, that means like, hey, everything's alright, everything's good thumbs up, but for some in some cultures, that means sit on this it means something completely different. So you have to be careful. You have to be careful with that one. Same with the okay sign. So the okay making an O between your thumb and your index finger making a circle and then your other fingers are up in you know, slightly curled. So that's the Okay, and generally that's done with your hand up in your palm out. That's okay. Yeah, in some cultures, that means aihole. In some cultures, that means zero. If you do if you tip that down, so that your fingers are pointing toward the ground, or doesn't even necessarily have to be like that. It's also a Sony associated with white supremacy. So that gesture has a whole lot of different meanings, and it can get really bad apparently, when I was I was reading that Richard Nixon once did this on a diplomatic mission to Brazil when he was the vice president. He got off an airplane and his handlers his Brazilian handlers met him and he made a double okay gesture to say like hey, everything's okay. Everything's okay. And really what he's saying is you guys are a bunch of A holes. Thanks for having me!

Christine Malec:

Oh! Ha ha!

JJ Hunt:

A bit of a diplomatic fail there on Richard Nixon's part.

Christine Malec:

But what about deliberate profanity in western nonverbal communication are there more other than the flipping the bird there are, I want to be prepared, you know.

JJ Hunt:

You want to be prepared! Heh heh. Well, there are a few that are like again, different degrees. So that chin flick is one, which depending where you are in the world could be anything from I'm a little bit rude to being really rude. So this is where you would start with your fingers kind of knuckles up touching your, your throat, your Adam's apple if you've got one, and and then scraping your fingers on the underside of the chin and then kind of pushing them forward like that, and you flick them off. And that's a GET LOST gesture. And that can be anywhere from like a playful get out of here, depending on who you're talking to. But it can also be like super rude. Like that's a really aggressive beginning of fight kind of, kind of really aggressive. I remember in the last episode we talked about that we did on gestures we talked about the the rock on horns, the devil horns, hook em horns.

Christine Malec:

Oh, yeah, I love that one.

JJ Hunt:

Yeah, well be careful when you do that one!

Christine Malec:

Ha ha ha! Oh?

JJ Hunt:

I learned that that has different meanings in some places. So it can mean if you're in Italy or in Mexico or in Spain, it can mean I am sleeping with your wife. Ehg!

Christine Malec:

Get outta here!

JJ Hunt:

Yeah! It's a cuckold gesture.

Christine Malec:

Gasp!

JJ Hunt:

And it's so this is where you've got your your index finger and your pinky finger pointed up and the two middle fingers are bent and your thumb is kind of holding them down there are your bull horns. And if you do that with your palm facing out, it can mean rock on at a concert or it can mean devil horns with your tongue sticking out like you know metal music or whatever. Or if you're a college football fan that's the hook them horns. I think it's a Texas College football team. But yeah, not in Italy or Mexico or Spain and I think a few other places as well. It's I'm sleeping with your wife, which is rude. Rude. Rude. Yes, very different.

Christine Malec:

Gasp. Wow. Is there one from sleeping with your mother? Oh, did I say that outloud!?

JJ Hunt:

Ha ha ha!

Christine Malec:

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Nodding
Eyebrows
Shrugs
Talking with hands
Eyes
Facial expressions
Hand gestures
Rude gestures